Founder and CEO of Maximum Communications Ayana King joined us for a fantastic discussion about how to do the intentional, personal work of anti-racist allyship. From the different types of microaggressions to the danger of quiet racists, we cover a wide variety of topics.
She offers three important ways to do the work yourself: take the Project Implicit test and modules, examine your friend groups and the diversity of the people you surround yourself with, and immerse yourself in the Black experience and Black culture.
Themes discussed in this episode
- Allyship and antiracist work is personal
- Different types of microaggressions
- White people often don’t recognize their own racism
- Overt racism vs. quiet racists
- Racism is not black people’s problem to fix – It’s white people’s responsibility
- Racism is a spectrum
- Ways to be actively anti-racist
Featured Guest
Expert Guest: Ayana King
Title: CEO of Maximum Communications
What She Does: Founder and CEO of Maximum Communications, Ayana King has hosted hundreds of Diversity + Inclusion workshops and webinars nationwide. Her partners include small businesses, nationally-recognized nonprofits, startups, and organizations ready to better understand and accelerate DEI advocacy.
Connect: You can find her on LinkedIn and her website
Episode Highlights
Timestamped inflection points from the show
3:00 – Anti-racist allyship is intentional, personal work: If you want to make a change in the workplace, the change has to start within yourself.
8:00 – Your feminism must be intersectional: If your feminism doesn’t address ageism, racism, ableism and homophobia, it is not feminism.
15:45 – Different types of microaggressions: There are three main types of microaggressions: micro-assaults, micro-insults, and microinvalidations.
20:00 – Overt racism vs quiet racists: Quiet racists are more dangerous to many Black people than outspoken racists.
23:00 – Ending racism is not Black people’s job: From the systemic level down to the interpersonal levels, it is white people’s job to do the heavy lifting and end racism.
31:00 – Share what you learn: Take all the anti-racist education you learn back into the white communities where you have influence.
37:30 – Ways to do the work: Take the Project Implicit test and modules, examine your friend groups and the diversity of the people you surround yourself with, and immerse yourself in the Black experience and Black culture
Top Quotes
8:00 – I always say specifically to white women who openly say they are feminist: Listen if your feminism does not address racism and ableism and ageism in all of that stuff, you are not a feminist.
12:00 – If you believe yourself to be a good and fair and just person you will always be looking for those parts of yourself that are sometimes unjust and unfair and trying to fix that. If you are not doing that intentionally, you are not doing the work period. You can try to make all the excuses that you like, but this is very intentional work.
16:30 – “I don’t see color” is a microinvalidation. Because you invalidate me when you choose not to see my color and if you are a person in a position of advantage and power and you’re talking about equity and you’re talking about how to get to a place of equality. There’s no way you can get there when you don’t see my skin color.
20:15 – Passive racism is worse to me because I’d like to know who I’m dealing with, and at least with an overt racist, I know who you are. I don’t like people who sneak around and like to dip around the community because it feels good for them.They love the music but hate the culture and don’t like the people. Those people are dangerous to me.
27:30 – I don’t think that there are any white people in this country who do not grapple with racism because it’s ingrained in everything you learn.
Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Work, Ally, Anti-Racist
Intro
Welcome to work, Mom says.
00;00;03;10 – 00;00;05;01
Lori Jo Vest
Don’t be an idiot.
00;00;05;13 – 00;00;08;15
Intro
And now here’s your host work, Mom and.
00;00;12;09 – 00;00;46;03
Lori Jo Vest
Thank you for joining me for work. Mom says don’t be an idiot. The podcast that aims to help young professionals play the emotional contact sport of business. And today I have a guest that has been with us before, Ayana King with Maximum Communications. And Ayana is is just a rock star in the area of D-I. She says what needs to be said, she tells you what you need to hear and she does it in a way that’s just really straightforward and and honest.
00;00;46;04 – 00;00;57;16
Lori Jo Vest
And a lot of us we were just talking before we started the recording this session. A lot of us don’t want to be that honest. And so I honest here today. Ayana, tell us a little bit about yourself.
00;00;58;16 – 00;01;23;17
Ayana King
Thank you so much for having me today, Lori. I am Ayana King and I own a small little D-I education agency called Maximum Communications, where I am doing diversity, equity and inclusion education nationwide, both in person and via webinars. And it has been the joy of my life, honestly, outside of having children. It’s the other joy in my life.
00;01;24;18 – 00;01;50;01
Lori Jo Vest
It’s your baby. That’s your baby. And I know we talked probably about two years ago. We talked a lot about at that point about being black at work and helping people who are not people of color understand the roadblocks and challenges and difficulties that people of color experience in our workplaces. But here we are two years later. Honestly, I don’t know if anything has changed.
00;01;50;24 – 00;02;19;19
Lori Jo Vest
I know you’ve been out there doing the work, but I thought a really good topic of conversation for us today would be those of us who really want to be good, strong allies and help, you know, kind of I mean, eradicating it would be amazing. But even chipping away at the, you know, the hidden biases and the racism at the office we know exists, It’s that nasty underbelly of corporate America.
00;02;20;04 – 00;02;29;23
Lori Jo Vest
And so I know you’ve been doing this DIY training for companies for the last couple of years. What do you think young people at work need to know?
00;02;30;12 – 00;02;58;26
Ayana King
Yeah, well, I started back in 2018, and obviously after the murder of George Floyd, my agency, the work that I’m doing as well as other folks doing this work, we saw an explosion of people who all of a sudden were appeared to be wide eyed, very ready. Let’s have the conversations, Let’s do the work. But it did not take very long to recognize that folks were not ready.
00;02;59;18 – 00;03;25;26
Ayana King
What for? Folks were really interested in doing was not appearing to be racist. That’s really what it was about. And so, you know, one of the things that I always challenge my client partners and those who come through my workshops to do is look at themselves, okay, this is very personal work. So if you want to make a change in the workplace, the change starts with you.
00;03;25;26 – 00;03;53;28
Ayana King
I know that sounds very cliche. That change starts with you, but no, it really does. It really does, because it does. You have to do the personal work first and then especially if you are in a position of influence or advantage, a position of leadership, then you can share what you know in your circles of influence. But if you don’t learn it first, if it is not personal to you first, it’s performative period point blank.
00;03;54;07 – 00;04;25;03
Ayana King
And folks from marginalized communities, whether that be black folks or brown folks, whether that be folks from the LGBTQ community, whether that’s older folks or folks with disabilities, we know we know when somebody is blowing smoke and when it’s for real. And I’ll say, you know, I have just been very proud and very happy to work with the organizations I’ve been working with because I’ve been able to say that to them without sugarcoating it.
00;04;25;10 – 00;04;34;13
Ayana King
And they have answered the call and they have begun to do that very personal work. And you’re not going to bring everybody along. But that is the goal. The work is personal.
00;04;35;03 – 00;05;01;12
Lori Jo Vest
And it really is. I don’t know if you saw the Dr. Phil episode that was on a couple of months ago. I was fascinated by this episode and really surprised to see it on his show of all places. And he invited these two women. One is Indian, the other is a black woman. And they had a documentary they produced called Deconstructing Karen.
00;05;01;22 – 00;05;15;18
Lori Jo Vest
Yes. And they put a whole bunch of white women around a table and they started talking to them and they said, raise your hand if you’re racist. And they all sat there with their hands down and just kind of.
00;05;15;18 – 00;05;16;03
Ayana King
Crassly.
00;05;16;15 – 00;05;31;16
Lori Jo Vest
Looked at each other because nobody wanted to really look into our own perceptions that have been created by living in this country where racism is steeped in it.
00;05;31;27 – 00;05;32;15
Ayana King
Yes.
00;05;32;16 – 00;05;41;15
Lori Jo Vest
And a lot of us don’t want to admit it, but it was fascinating to see it on afternoon talk show television like that. Like, wow. I don’t know.
00;05;41;15 – 00;05;41;29
Ayana King
That we would have.
00;05;41;29 – 00;06;02;12
Lori Jo Vest
Seen that a couple of years back. It was surprising. And the women that he brought on that said they weren’t racist, they looked bad. They really did look bad like they weren’t following the rest of us. But I have a feeling there’s a lot of us that think more people are in on this than there really are, correct?
00;06;02;25 – 00;06;39;14
Ayana King
Yeah. And and listen, it shouldn’t be that fascinating because Phil Donahue was doing this. Okay? Phil Donahue back in the day, he had some very charged conversations. Right. I will say it was not fascinating to black women. Okay. It was fascinating for white women to see it. It was uncomfortable for white women to see it. And I always say and hope that this will really sink where it needs to sink for people who are really interested in doing this work, in deconstructing Karen.
00;06;39;14 – 00;06;55;24
Ayana King
Yes. But also unlearning their own internalized racism. Yeah. Most people, in my experience, most white folks are more afraid of being called a racist than they are at considering whether or not they are.
00;06;56;07 – 00;07;14;28
Lori Jo Vest
Right. Right. That’s what I thought was so strange. It’s like, have you not been paying attention for the last? We should have been talking about it for the last 400 years, but the last two, two and a half years, we’ve all really been, you know, digging into it. You’ll see more and more if you’re paying attention at all to the media.
00;07;14;28 – 00;07;29;25
Lori Jo Vest
You see more coverage of how do you release your hidden biases, how to uncover your own racism, all that stuff. So to me, all I could think of is what bubble are you living in? And then I realized we’re all kind of living in our own bubbles.
00;07;30;04 – 00;07;53;05
Ayana King
Yes, right. And you might not even be watching television that would bring that up because if that is not in your purview, you know, if that is not in your scope of something that you want to understand, you wouldn’t be watching that anyway. There are lots of white women, I am sure of it, who love Dr. Phil, who skipped out on that?
00;07;53;21 – 00;08;21;05
Ayana King
Oh, you skipped out on that because that’s not for me, right? That’s not for me. That’s not who I am. I don’t need to hear that. Yeah, you do. Sure you do. And I always say specifically to white women, specifically to white women who openly say they are feminists. Okay? I always say to them, listen, if your feminism does not address racism and able ism and ageism and all of that stuff, you are not a feminist, okay?
00;08;21;24 – 00;08;40;11
Ayana King
You are trying to attain the same power that white men have in this country. Just say that, okay? Just say that because I will respect that. And then we can work from the truth. But we can’t work from a place where you start out with a lie, rather you lied to me or you’re lying to yourself. That’s not how that’s not how we move forward.
00;08;41;06 – 00;09;06;17
Ayana King
And so I think the real challenge, whether we’re in the workplace or at a table, is telling the radical truth to ourselves about who we are and how we are. And that is really difficult. Even in my own life, even in my own experience with white women in my in my vicinity. Okay, that’s hard to do.
00;09;07;07 – 00;09;12;29
Lori Jo Vest
It is hard. Yeah. Well, and it requires a high level of discomfort.
00;09;13;09 – 00;09;13;28
Ayana King
Yes.
00;09;14;06 – 00;09;42;23
Lori Jo Vest
It really does. And I don’t mean that to say that it’s anywhere near the discomfort that people of color and marginalized communities feel. But when you’ve been living your happy little life in this country and you all of a sudden somebody says racist and you’re like, I’m not racist. Yeah, you’re like, Oh, honey, give it some thought. And you could probably come up with two or three questions to ask that person that they would go, Oh, you’re right.
00;09;42;23 – 00;10;15;04
Lori Jo Vest
Yes, I have a lot to work on. But the the the impetus or reason to get yourself uncomfortable seems to be missing. So the motivation to get that uncomfortable, I mean, you can tell with what’s happening in Florida with the, you know, African-American studies, you know, Black History Month, taking those out of the curriculum, there is a certain percentage of our population that just doesn’t think that white people should feel bad about their history.
00;10;15;16 – 00;10;38;09
Lori Jo Vest
And I’m not I don’t think we should all walk around feeling like shit all the time as much as let’s acknowledge what happened, let’s cry or tears and let’s move on and change it and dismantle it. But without acknowledging it and experiencing that discomfort, it’s just not going to happen. Right. So in your work, how do you get people to get that personal connection?
00;10;39;28 – 00;11;06;22
Ayana King
It takes weeks and weeks and weeks. It really does. I ask them hard questions. I ask them to consider whether or not they actually are racist. I ask them to consider how they were brought up. I ask them to consider the root on that tree. I ask them to take an implicit bias test. I ask them their level of comfort of stepping in and speaking up.
00;11;07;22 – 00;11;25;00
Ayana King
And I do this again over the course of 4 to 6 weeks. Okay. So I’m not hitting you with a one day workshop and all of a sudden you’re going to get it. No, I’m. I’m jumping on you week after week after week, and then I’m coming back to you week after week and saying, what did you notice?
00;11;26;15 – 00;11;58;21
Ayana King
And it takes a long time for people to start even speaking up and saying, yes, I can admit that I am a person who has been a perpetrator of microaggressions. Yes, I am a person who can admit that my unconscious bias would lead me to look at a person who was different from me and automatically make negative assumptions about them based on what I’ve been told or based on what I have experienced, rather my experience or somebody else’s in the past.
00;11;58;27 – 00;12;27;04
Ayana King
It takes a very long time to get people to even consider that they and still they might not even admit it out loud. Right. But I’m exposing them to truths over and over, over a period of weeks, and at the same time being vulnerable and sharing some of the things that I have done, some of the mistakes that I have made, acknowledging that anti-blackness is for everybody.
00;12;27;05 – 00;12;27;20
Ayana King
Okay.
00;12;28;12 – 00;12;29;09
Lori Jo Vest
Right. Right.
00;12;29;17 – 00;12;59;19
Ayana King
And in the black community as well. And so, you know, really getting people to understand that if you believe yourself to be a good and fair and just person, you will always be looking for those parts of yourself that are sometimes unjust and unfair and trying to fix that. And if you are not doing that intentionally, you are not doing the work, period.
00;13;00;02 – 00;13;20;03
Ayana King
You know, you can try to make all the excuses that you like, but this is very intentional work. I don’t care how many black friends you have. Do you really have a black friend? That’s the number one question. Okay. Because if you have a black friend and you are not having any of these questions specifically since 2020, guess what?
00;13;20;03 – 00;13;22;00
Ayana King
You ain’t got a black friend. You don’t.
00;13;22;05 – 00;13;23;03
Lori Jo Vest
You have an acquaintance.
00;13;23;29 – 00;13;43;18
Ayana King
You know, black people. And so, again, people have to be able to look themselves in the mirror and say, you know, I got some work to do. And if you are not willing to do that, that’s fine. But don’t pretend that you are, because guess what? What is a blind spot for you is very clear to other people.
00;13;44;14 – 00;14;14;14
Ayana King
And so, you know, again, if we go back to the workplace, I just think about my own experience in all the workplaces I was in, whether they were predominantly white or not, I think about how I knew I was safe and whom I was safe with and why I knew that. And for the vast majority of places that I have worked as an adult, specifically, those places that were predominantly white, you know, that was not always a good environment for me, even though I had some good experiences there.
00;14;14;20 – 00;14;37;03
Ayana King
Ultimately, you know, when you’re talking about experiencing microaggression or really just not being able to show up as your authentic self, when you talk about having to be the stand in for all black people. Yeah, that don’t feel good. It’s it’s not a good feeling and it’s not good for you know can.
00;14;37;08 – 00;14;53;14
Lori Jo Vest
Let’s talk about microaggressions. Tell me about what tell me what kind of microaggressions do people tend to throw your way not realizing that they’re doing it? Because I know that has to happen. Yeah.
00;14;53;26 – 00;15;18;09
Ayana King
So, first of all, what people really need to understand about most microaggressions is that most microaggressions the person on the giving in the perpetrator, in most instances, they have no idea that they’ve said anything that’s offensive in many cases, they think they are saying something that is helpful. They think they are saying something that is positive. They think they are saying something to really endorse you as a person.
00;15;19;20 – 00;15;37;14
Ayana King
But it’s one of those backhanded compliment. So there are three kinds of microaggressions that I always tell people about their micro assaults, which are the most heinous kind. These are not accidents. These are things that people say they know it hurts. Okay? But what they’ll do is they might pass it off as a joke and then they’ll gaslight you.
00;15;37;14 – 00;16;03;15
Ayana King
Oh, you don’t know how to take a joke. Then there’s micro insults and micro and validations. So a micro insult might be something someone saying like, Oh, you’re not like the other black people I know or somebody saying something as seemingly innocent as, Wow, you, you are really articulate. Like with wonderment like that. I could speak intelligently. Right?
00;16;04;04 – 00;16;29;15
Ayana King
So these are micro insults because they think they’re saying something that is helpful. They think they’re endorsing you as a person. A micro invalidation that I hear again and again and again. And I tell people all the time, if you’re serious about doing this work, stop saying this. The phrase I don’t see color. I don’t see color is a micro invalidation because you invalidate me when you choose not to see my color.
00;16;29;15 – 00;16;52;07
Ayana King
And if you are a person in a position of advantage and power and you’re talking about equity and you’re talking about how to get to a place of equality, there’s no way you can get there when you don’t see my skin color. When you refuse to see me as a black woman, you also then refuse to see all of the challenges I have because I am a black woman in certain spaces.
00;16;52;23 – 00;17;15;28
Ayana King
So all of those things are red flags, the people who know the difference. All right. People who are experiencing this kind of stuff on a regular basis, all of those sorts of phrases is and you know, you’re not like them or you’re so different, all of that. We know what it is when we hear it, even though the person saying these things, you know, they think they’re being helpful.
00;17;16;21 – 00;17;17;07
Ayana King
You know, I.
00;17;17;07 – 00;17;21;25
Lori Jo Vest
Don’t like black people, but I like you. Yeah, I know what they’re saying.
00;17;22;00 – 00;17;34;27
Ayana King
Right, Right. Let me tell you something else that really, really irritates me. Okay. So, you know, we live we well, I’m in Wayne County, I think. Are you and Wayne in Oakland?
00;17;35;16 – 00;17;36;06
Lori Jo Vest
I’m in Oakland.
00;17;36;22 – 00;18;02;13
Ayana King
Okay. I’m Wayne County. I’m in a small city, literally a short drive to Detroit. Okay. And so the number of white folks who are here in the suburbs who talk about not going to Detroit, I’m not going to go to Detroit. People I know, people I know it is such a red flag for me because you’re not looking at your own neighborhood and the meth addict who be walking around through your backyard up and down your street.
00;18;02;26 – 00;18;26;15
Ayana King
You’re not talking about these people on that knoll who are breaking into houses and stealing. You’re not talking about people who are harming children in your own community, but you are so focused on I don’t want to go to Detroit because it’s dangerous. Sir, Ma’am. Madam, your living room. Yeah. What you need to be worried about. Okay. Your neighborhood is what you need to be worried about.
00;18;26;15 – 00;18;45;05
Ayana King
And that is a red flag for me. Because what you’re saying is this city that is predominantly black is a dangerous city because it is predominantly black. All of that. You know, that’s a red flag for me. I see you for who you are. Just just say I’m a racist. But the thing is, is that makes exactly. I don’t know that they’re racist.
00;18;45;14 – 00;18;48;07
Ayana King
They just don’t know it. You know, they don’t know.
00;18;48;08 – 00;18;51;11
Lori Jo Vest
How to find out how. How do they find out?
00;18;51;18 – 00;19;11;11
Ayana King
You don’t. They don’t until they run into somebody like me or somebody like you who’s willing to say, you know, you’re a racist. Right? You know that’s racist, right? Because in their minds, a racist is someone who goes around dropping the N bomb. Right. A racist is somebody who, you know, is just more overtly hateful.
00;19;12;02 – 00;19;13;08
Lori Jo Vest
But not racist. No.
00;19;13;19 – 00;19;20;15
Ayana King
Yes. Who’s more or aggressive? Right. But you know what I say. You know, quiet white women are very dangerous.
00;19;21;11 – 00;19;27;20
Lori Jo Vest
They are racism. Yeah. Passive racism is just as bad. Listen, if not worse.
00;19;28;09 – 00;19;50;16
Ayana King
Worse to me. Because you know what? I like to know who I’m dealing with. And at least with an overt racist, I know who you are. I don’t like people who sneak. And, you know, you know, like to dip around the community, you know, because it feels good for them. You know, they love the music but hate the culture, you know, don’t like the people.
00;19;50;24 – 00;20;29;06
Ayana King
Those are the people who are dangerous to me, the people who are in relationship with overt racists. Okay. But who still want to try to be your friend. You’re no friend of mine if you are also friend to racist. I see you. You are dangerous for me. Those are the folks who I think are I don’t know who who really need to hear it most because they think themselves to be pious, you know, not only want to get into the church, but yeah, they they see themselves as not being part of the problem.
00;20;29;14 – 00;20;38;02
Ayana King
But wow, I think about the damage that has been done just because a white woman has cried. Right. Will see it for what it is.
00;20;39;11 – 00;21;07;07
Lori Jo Vest
Let’s talk about that a little bit, because I find it really interesting that so many white folks don’t understand why what there’s two concepts, and I don’t think people get that They expect their black and other marginalized community friends to do the heavy lifting for them, to tell them about it, to explain it to them, which I’m kind of doing today to sorry about that.
00;21;07;07 – 00;21;25;17
Lori Jo Vest
But it’s one of those where you invite the experts on to talk. Right. But but people expect their black friends to do the heavy lifting and tell me why that’s a problem. Yeah, why is what I said a big deal? No, no, no, no, no. Don’t do that. It’s not your black friends job to tell you why you’re being racist.
00;21;26;13 – 00;21;51;11
Ayana King
Look. Oh, let me point out the difference, though. Let me point out the difference to here, though, Lori, is that you and I do have a relationship. Yes. And it is a friendship. The issue is, again, you have white folks who know black people. That does not mean they are friends and then accost black people to do the heavy lifting without there being a relationship.
00;21;51;17 – 00;22;13;09
Ayana King
Okay. So I know a lot of white Ford or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me why this isn’t right. No, go find out. Because it’s emotional abuse to me for you to all of a sudden think because you have a black person, you have access to a black person. Now you have access to the answers, but you don’t.
00;22;13;15 – 00;22;31;20
Ayana King
I’m friendly with lots of white folks, but that does not mean I am your friend. Right? Okay. So I do this for a living. Unless we are friends, I’m a go tell you to go find out or I’m gonna tell you where you can book an appointment. Okay. And I’m asking how much it cost to come through a workshop.
00;22;31;29 – 00;23;00;23
Ayana King
That’s what I’m going to do. So I think that I think it goes back to really entitlements. Yeah. And lots of white folks not understanding it as being entitlement, but that’s what it is. You believe because now you have access to this black person. You can just ask this black person for all of the answers instead of going doing your own work.
00;23;00;27 – 00;23;11;19
Ayana King
The work begins with you, not with you. Asking a black person why this or that is wrong. Ask yourself why you think it’s okay for you to do these things right, that that’s where you start.
00;23;12;02 – 00;23;19;13
Lori Jo Vest
And you’re retraumatizing people by forcing you to discuss it with you because they don’t think you’re safe or not.
00;23;19;28 – 00;23;41;25
Ayana King
Specifically in the workplace. So when I do my workshops, I start at the top, okay? I start with executive leadership because that’s almost always who needs it first. I start with boards and I tell them, just because you have a black employee or many black employees who are willing to share this experience with you does not mean they’re doing it gleefully.
00;23;42;01 – 00;24;03;08
Ayana King
I want you to recognize that you are a person with power and advantage. And so when you come to your folks on your downline and to maybe ask them their experience, some of them are probably going to share it gladly and some of them are probably going to share it with a smile. But that does not mean they are happy to share.
00;24;03;09 – 00;24;30;17
Ayana King
It means that they understand the rules and they understand where they are in the company and where you are in the company. And so people need to understand that. Go do your own work. There are lots of people who are doing this work who are giving you access to their work, sometimes many times for free. Don’t you dare go and ask people you are not in relationship with anything right now.
00;24;31;14 – 00;24;34;19
Ayana King
And when you don’t do that, you are telling on yourself.
00;24;35;06 – 00;24;35;15
Lori Jo Vest
Right?
00;24;36;04 – 00;24;41;14
Ayana King
Okay. Because you’re saying I deserve to know this and you should be the one to tell me because you know it.
00;24;42;08 – 00;24;52;00
Lori Jo Vest
Right? When in reality that’s the complete wrong person to ask. Listen, I have been through your workshops right now.
00;24;53;11 – 00;25;18;25
Ayana King
There’s so many different ways that you can learn. Okay. You might not have time to go to a workshop. You might not have time to read a book, but you can watch a documentary. Probably you can probably listen to a podcast while you’re doing your workout or while you’re on your way to work. There are lots of different ways we have to get creative and stop going back to the default of.
00;25;18;26 – 00;25;29;29
Ayana King
I’m just going to ask a person, I’m going to ask a black person. I’m going to ask a gay person. I’m going to ask a disabled person. Unless you’re in close relationship with them, don’t ask them nothing.
00;25;31;12 – 00;25;32;07
Lori Jo Vest
Seriously.
00;25;32;28 – 00;25;33;14
Ayana King
Don’t ask.
00;25;33;14 – 00;25;58;24
Lori Jo Vest
Them. Yeah. I personally think there’s a lot lot, lot, lot. A lot of books. Mm hmm. You can listen to them on Audible, like you said, when you work out or take a walk. There’s so many great books out there. They’re amazing and there’s so many consultants and workshops and videos and documentaries and things that you can watch to make yourself uncomfortable.
00;25;58;24 – 00;26;18;27
Lori Jo Vest
And if you’re a person of Caucasian descent and you are not making yourself uncomfortable to get rid of your hidden bias, then you can pretty much just put that racist label across your chest and keep moving because that is not going to change without you doing the work. Right. Just stop it.
00;26;19;18 – 00;26;36;00
Ayana King
And you know what? I when I read Isabel Wilkerson’s book, Caste, it really changed a lot for me because I stopped really asking the question because of her book about who was racist or not.
00;26;36;08 – 00;26;36;19
Lori Jo Vest
Mm hmm.
00;26;36;29 – 00;27;07;14
Ayana King
Instead, I think about the caste system. Right. And to be honest with you, I look at racism as a spectrum now. I don’t think I know. And I’m married to a white man, Right? I don’t think that there are enough white people in this country who do not grapple with racism because it it’s ingrained in everything you learn, everything that you are taught.
00;27;08;16 – 00;27;31;11
Ayana King
Almost every experience you have had with a nonwhite person. And so I don’t ask the question so much any more of is this person racist or not? Maybe I think of it when I meet people and I talk to them is how racist are they? Exactly. You know. Right, right, Right.
00;27;31;22 – 00;28;05;06
Lori Jo Vest
I mean, that’s it. Because, like, we you know, if you that was the book that really kind of just completely changed my life. I lost sleep over it for days. I didn’t sleep because it’s so in our history that we don’t acknowledge or even know about. It’s so toxic and so abusive that as soon as you read that book and you just like take it to heart, which I don’t think anybody can read it without taking it to heart, you start to understand the whole systemic what people mean when they say, yes.
00;28;05;19 – 00;28;22;04
Lori Jo Vest
I just heard that the AP courses were taking the words the stomach out from in front of the word racism and as part of meeting the standards of the new far right people that are trying to erase history.
00;28;22;16 – 00;28;33;23
Ayana King
And so what an exercise. What an exercise. Right. And what racism is that that white people in power get to now tell you what systemic racism is or is not. Right.
00;28;34;03 – 00;28;38;08
Lori Jo Vest
There’s no such thing. We’ll just eliminate it and act like it doesn’t exist. Exactly.
00;28;39;13 – 00;29;07;25
Ayana King
Exactly. So I just don’t think that is helpful for me to go around trying to figure out, you know, if Laurie is racist or if Kim is racist or if any of these people who I enjoy being around who I like, who I have relationships with, are racist or not. Instead, what I have to think about all of these people who I have relationships with and who I like is are they willing to see it for themselves and are they willing to change?
00;29;08;03 – 00;29;11;07
Ayana King
That’s a better question for me then. Is someone so racist?
00;29;11;29 – 00;29;13;04
Lori Jo Vest
Yeah, that makes sense.
00;29;13;08 – 00;29;32;20
Ayana King
Is that person a person who’s willing to see themselves and to make a better environment for me and my children to live in? Right. For me and other people who look like me to live in for for me and, you know, undocumented folks to live in for me and folks from the LGBTQ community to live in. Now, if they pass that smell test.
00;29;32;20 – 00;29;51;29
Ayana King
Okay, then maybe we could be friends. Yeah, they all passed the initial smell test. The smell test to me is, are you racist or not? Because the answer in my mind is always going to probably go, you know, I don’t know how you could be. Yeah. The litmus test for me is, do you know yourself? Are you doing some intentional work?
00;29;52;17 – 00;29;54;01
Ayana King
Are your eyes opening up?
00;29;54;18 – 00;30;04;07
Lori Jo Vest
Yeah. Are you willing to look at that dark side of yourself? Yes. Because there is we’ve all had of that shadow self that is, you know, that’s in there.
00;30;04;23 – 00;30;26;15
Ayana King
Yes, yes, yes. And what do you do when I. Yeah. And so when I do look at some of the relationships that I have with folks and when I also say to myself, man, I really want to like this person, but there’s something about them. I’m asking myself, like, do I think they’re doing the work? Are they uncomfortable when I bring up race?
00;30;27;08 – 00;30;56;16
Ayana King
I’m looking at their body language. Are they trying to change the subject? All of those are red flags for me. And yeah, again, this work is very personal. You know, if the only time you’re talking about race is when you’re with me, we can’t be friends because you’re with the therapist. You know what I mean? You should be talking to other white folks about this stuff because those are the people that you have influence with, you know?
00;30;58;05 – 00;31;20;29
Ayana King
So when you learn something new, I’m always telling people that come through and I’m telling you I have the most wonderful client partners and I’m I am always just saying to them, everything you learn, don’t hoard it for yourself, Take it back into the communities where you have influence. Okay. I love for people to go to marches and, you know, march for equality.
00;31;20;29 – 00;31;44;16
Ayana King
I love that. I think that’s really important. But I always say our much rather you walk your behind into your living room and talk to your husband or talk to your in-laws or talk to your siblings or talk to your friend groups because those are the people that you actually have influence with. Okay. You might. Walking in, walking in a march might feel good.
00;31;44;25 – 00;31;48;29
Ayana King
Okay. Might look good even on social media. But did you do anything?
00;31;49;25 – 00;31;50;28
Lori Jo Vest
Yeah. What changed?
00;31;51;03 – 00;31;54;19
Ayana King
You come home and not have any conversations with the people who you actually live with.
00;31;55;12 – 00;31;55;22
Lori Jo Vest
Right.
00;31;56;12 – 00;32;03;04
Ayana King
That’s the litmus test for me. It’s not a march itself. The march is not the litmus test. What did you do after the march?
00;32;03;21 – 00;32;04;03
Lori Jo Vest
Right.
00;32;04;16 – 00;32;08;17
Ayana King
Who did you talk to after the march? Are you only talking to me? Okay. Red flag.
00;32;09;07 – 00;32;33;06
Lori Jo Vest
Yeah. Seriously, though. Yeah. I never really understand that. And I don’t know how people. I think that our culture has also set us up to fear the different. To fear anything that’s different. So people that are older than you, people that are, you know, that are a different skin color than you. People have a different religion than you.
00;32;33;16 – 00;32;56;00
Lori Jo Vest
Like, for example, I remember going out to a restaurant with my aunt when I was like 15, 16. It was just the two of us. And she looked around and she said, I can’t believe how many Jewish people are here. And I had just moved to Michigan from down south, and I knew I was like looking around going, Well, how can you tell.
00;32;56;28 – 00;32;57;18
Ayana King
Me what.
00;32;57;18 – 00;33;19;27
Lori Jo Vest
She was talking about? I mean, there’s too many Jewish people. It would look like people at a restaurant and it just. I’ll never forget it because she was so upset and I could say nothing except for a bunch of white people in a restaurant don’t. But, you know, the fear of the different is so dug in, so deep in our culture.
00;33;19;27 – 00;33;34;23
Lori Jo Vest
And I don’t know, how do you get people to give that up to just go, You know what? Besides exposure, besides people, you know, talking to each other and being more open. And now that’s how And it’s white people talking to other white people.
00;33;35;18 – 00;33;36;05
Ayana King
Yes.
00;33;36;13 – 00;33;36;29
Lori Jo Vest
Right.
00;33;37;13 – 00;34;02;18
Ayana King
Yes. Yes. Because I know you’ve heard this said many times before, racism is not for black people to fix. No. We know how to navigate in this world with people who hate us. We know how to excel in an environment where people literally loathe us. This is not our issued effects. This is for white people. Racism is ours exclusively.
00;34;02;25 – 00;34;24;18
Ayana King
So you will hear black people say, black people can’t be racist. Black people can’t be racist. I just want to touch on that for a second because I think people don’t understand the difference between prejudice and racism. Racism has to do with power, okay? Racism has. That’s why you will hear black people saying, we can’t be racist. Listen, we can be hateful for sure.
00;34;24;25 – 00;34;48;13
Ayana King
We can be prejudiced for sure. But racism is about power. Okay. I’m I’m not going to, in most instances, be in a position of power over white folks. I’m just not going to. If I am the victim in a situation and the police are called, I’m almost always going to be accosted first. That has to do with power dynamics.
00;34;49;00 – 00;34;54;23
Ayana King
So people really need to understand that specifically in the workplace so we can go back to the workplace for a second.
00;34;55;15 – 00;34;55;24
Lori Jo Vest
Yeah.
00;34;56;07 – 00;35;20;04
Ayana King
This is why this work has to be intentional and you have to know yourself. If you’re if your first thought when someone of a different race, someone of a different ethnicity challenges you, if your first thought is they are being hostile. They are being angry. If you’re if your first thought is you need to tell somebody. You need to tell on your damn self.
00;35;20;27 – 00;35;39;04
Ayana King
Okay? Not because you’re a racist, because you understand power dynamics, which is why you say things like you’re being hostile, you’re being angry. All right. I can’t talk to this person. You know, I’m a person that talks with my hands a lot. I can be boisterous.
00;35;40;14 – 00;35;40;29
Lori Jo Vest
Safe.
00;35;41;19 – 00;35;45;23
Ayana King
That doesn’t mean that I’m angry, but you and I would be categorized very differently.
00;35;46;04 – 00;35;56;21
Lori Jo Vest
Aggressive. I get called like you’re just so aggressive. You’re so. You’re just too aggressive. You know, it’s. No, I would call it assertive, but because I’m a woman, I get called aggressive.
00;35;57;01 – 00;35;57;11
Ayana King
Yes.
00;35;57;11 – 00;36;02;20
Lori Jo Vest
And I’d say black women suffer even more from the angry black woman trope.
00;36;03;02 – 00;36;03;19
Ayana King
Definitely.
00;36;04;08 – 00;36;04;18
Lori Jo Vest
Right.
00;36;04;18 – 00;36;30;26
Ayana King
Definitely. So much so that when someone is actually discriminating against you, when someone is actually maligning you in the workplace, you will for me personally, I remember this doing mental gymnastics. Was it worth it for me to speak up or not? Because I knew I would be chastised, you know? Was I reading too much into it? You know, was I somehow being unfair?
00;36;30;27 – 00;36;59;07
Ayana King
Was I being extra sensitive? Because I was aware that I was the only Blackbird? All of those things happen. So people in the workplace really need to be, again, doing that intentional work. And I always say go to Project Implicit. It’s free. Take several modules. They will help you uncover your own blindspots. And it might not feel good to recognize some of these things about yourself.
00;36;59;13 – 00;37;07;01
Ayana King
But I always say it is much easier for you to swallow that than for somebody to point it out to you, honestly. You better know yourself.
00;37;07;22 – 00;37;20;00
Lori Jo Vest
Seriously. So if we were to give people like three different things that they could do to uncover their own hidden bias, that sounds like one right there. Go to project. Yes.
00;37;20;20 – 00;37;22;25
Ayana King
That’s. That’s top of my list now.
00;37;23;01 – 00;37;24;25
Lori Jo Vest
And then the other thing. Go ahead.
00;37;26;01 – 00;37;33;20
Ayana King
The other thing I think people should do is consider their friend groups. Are your friend groups diverse?
00;37;35;22 – 00;38;09;02
Ayana King
Do your friend groups include black and brown folks who can really share their experience? And if you say yes, my friend group includes black or brown folks, but you are not having these conversations. I want you to consider whether or not you are a safe person for these folks. That’s number two. And then number three, really immerse yourself into the black experience and you might not be able to do that on a personal level, especially if you don’t have family members by extension or friend groups.
00;38;09;11 – 00;38;32;02
Ayana King
But again, read books, watch documentaries, look at sitcoms and movies. You know, I think a lot of white folks always think as soon as you put the word black on front of something, it means that it’s only for black folks. But that also is not true. Support black businesses. Go in there. Walk around. See the things. Smell the smell.
00;38;32;06 – 00;38;56;08
Ayana King
Get to know the people. Do all of that. Immerse yourself in the culture. And again, if you are not able to do that physically. Technology is wonderful. Look at documentaries, sitcoms, movies. These are people who are sharing the experience. And if you are somebody who is purposefully doing the unlearning, this is part of that process.
00;38;57;22 – 00;39;20;07
Lori Jo Vest
Absolutely. Like I like to put myself in social situations where I am the only white person or one of two or three, because it’s the way that we immerse ourselves, that we start to break down those biases that come from living in the lily white suburbs and never seen a black person. So it’s like, Oh, I don’t. They’re different.
00;39;20;07 – 00;39;41;16
Lori Jo Vest
They won’t like me. Well, how do you know if you’re an asshole? They won’t. But what do you mean they just won’t like you? And that’s a lot of the fear. Like, Oh, I have a Jewish person. I’m sharing an office with a Jewish person. Now, what if I say something that makes them uncomfortable? Well, you might, but then want to apologize and keep moving and know and learn from it.
00;39;42;01 – 00;40;07;07
Lori Jo Vest
So the fear of putting yourself, you got to give that up. And that to me has been one of the best things I’ve ever done, is just to stop, look, look for options, look for places, look for opportunities. I hired a black woman as my business coach. Yeah. Leaps and bounds. I have grown, and she has a group where there’s like eight of us, and two of us are white, and the other six are black.
00;40;07;24 – 00;40;37;00
Lori Jo Vest
And it just, you know, again, just. Okay, let’s just. Why is that a problem? Why should I even have to think about it is I think this day and age in 2023 that we have to think about that and be purposeful about it is a little annoying or a lot annoying and pretty disgusting, but it’s really a fun, pleasant way to drop a lot of that stuff that I’m going to be to different and they won’t like me.
00;40;37;27 – 00;40;50;23
Lori Jo Vest
Yeah, that’s what I that’s what was in my head. I’m too different. I’m going to put my foot in my mouth, make a dumb mistake, and then they’ll hate me. Well, why? Because you don’t trust yourself. Are you that bad that you’re going to do something really mean? No.
00;40;52;18 – 00;41;19;24
Ayana King
You know what? I think sometimes and I had this conversation not too long ago with my husband, I network. Okay? I’m in professional circles. I’m part of my local chamber, which is predominantly white. So I am many times. One of the only black women in the room. Okay. Right. Not always, but oftentimes. And I think about how many of them would be willing to put themselves in that situation and they wouldn’t.
00;41;19;24 – 00;41;38;19
Ayana King
And I am convinced it is because, you know, your own people group. And so you assume that the same way your people group behaves at times, the things that they say out loud, you know, unashamed. You think that that’s that’s what will happen in the black community. Guess what? We won’t be doing that bullshit.
00;41;39;01 – 00;41;40;07
Lori Jo Vest
Yep. Yeah.
00;41;40;21 – 00;41;41;20
Ayana King
It ain’t the same.
00;41;42;03 – 00;41;42;25
Lori Jo Vest
No, it’s not.
00;41;42;25 – 00;41;43;25
Ayana King
It’s not the same.
00;41;43;26 – 00;41;46;07
Lori Jo Vest
It’s not. Yeah, it’s not.
00;41;46;08 – 00;41;46;29
Ayana King
Probably where.
00;41;46;29 – 00;41;50;20
Lori Jo Vest
That comes from or the feeling of this comment.
00;41;51;03 – 00;41;57;18
Ayana King
Yes. Yes, I am. I am. I’m almost certain.
00;41;58;09 – 00;42;15;20
Lori Jo Vest
I think that’s the moment of clarity. That’s a moment of clarity. Because, I mean, I went through some difficulties personally just feeling like I’m going to say something dumb. I’m going to put my foot in my mouth, I’m going to be an idiot, and I’m just going to be, you know, thrown out.
00;42;17;04 – 00;42;33;13
Ayana King
Well, that is because you navigate white spaces where, you know, people say the most overt and racist bullshit, okay, And then just go on with their lives no matter who’s around and you worry about that being your experience as the only white woman in a room full of black folks. We don’t get down like that.
00;42;34;04 – 00;42;35;15
Lori Jo Vest
And I’ve never had it happen.
00;42;36;13 – 00;42;37;14
Ayana King
And you probably wouldn’t ever.
00;42;37;27 – 00;42;39;26
Lori Jo Vest
I’ve been accepted and nothing that hasn’t.
00;42;40;07 – 00;42;57;24
Ayana King
Yeah. Yeah. And I’m not saying that hasn’t happened to someone. I’m sure it has happened to someone somewhere, but I think that that is rare. But I also think that there are some folks who will say that is also because black folks have been conditioned to be welcoming to white folks.
00;43;01;03 – 00;43;02;00
Lori Jo Vest
Mm hmm. Again.
00;43;02;18 – 00;43;15;21
Ayana King
Yes. Right. Yeah. So many, many, many, many layers. It’s many, many layers. And we won’t fix it until we do the work ourselves again. Very personal.
00;43;15;21 – 00;43;36;19
Lori Jo Vest
Work. Yeah, until we talk. And we keep talking. And we keep talking and we keep talking. And we make concentrated efforts to hire black people. Pay black people. If you want someone to help you with your hidden racism, pay a black person for their work, go to their shops. You know, I mean, that’s how.
00;43;36;23 – 00;43;38;24
Ayana King
Hiring executive process. Yes.
00;43;39;08 – 00;43;42;21
Lori Jo Vest
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Do you do executive coaching?
00;43;43;17 – 00;44;02;20
Ayana King
I have just started doing coaching with some of the folks I had already been working with in larger groups. So now some of those folks are saying can do some one on one. Like, what does that look like? And I have to be honest, that was weird for me at first because I think I had a lot of notions about who a coach was or what a coach was or what a coach did.
00;44;03;01 – 00;44;08;04
Ayana King
But I’ve been doing that work again since 2017, 2018.
00;44;08;27 – 00;44;10;04
Lori Jo Vest
So yeah.
00;44;10;04 – 00;44;15;18
Ayana King
And I am enjoying it. And I think that that’s another one on one is another really good way to, to build friendships too.
00;44;15;24 – 00;44;38;18
Lori Jo Vest
So is that. Absolutely. Well, I want to thank you so, so much for joining me today. And you just always have so many wonderful tidbits and insights. And I think we just got to a really deep place of why we all feel so uncomfortable because we expect to be treated the way that the white community treats others. And it’s not always good.
00;44;39;06 – 00;44;51;07
Lori Jo Vest
Matter of fact, a lot of times, if there’s any differentiation, it’s it’s used against us. You know, or against people that have differences. So where can people find your material and learn more about you?
00;44;52;08 – 00;45;15;07
Ayana King
They can go to my website, get Max Carnes dot com that is Getty. masc0mm. S dot com or they can find me under Ayanna King on LinkedIn. About 90% of all of my clients come from LinkedIn, so I love it so much. And yeah, it’s been great for me.
00;45;15;07 – 00;45;15;29
Lori Jo Vest
That makes a lot of us.
00;45;15;29 – 00;45;17;08
Ayana King
Thank you for having me on today.
00;45;18;03 – 00;45;42;19
Lori Jo Vest
Awesome. Yeah. Thank you for being here. So that’s it for today’s episode of Mom says Don’t be an idiot. I’ll keep in mind we have a book coming out April 1st, I.A. giving us a review. We have all our guests. We asked all our guests to give us a review of the book. Lots of great helpful information and advice on navigating the emotional landscape of business.
00;45;43;03 – 00;46;06;20
Lori Jo Vest
It’s crazy out there, and I don’t think it’s gotten any better. If anything, it’s gotten stranger in the last couple of years. But please, we’d love to have your feedback. We are looking for reviews on the different podcast platforms. I’d love to hear what you think. So send me a review and you can also in touch with me on LinkedIn at Lorrie Jo Bascom.
00;46;06;28 – 00;46;26;29
Lori Jo Vest
I’m an open networker there and our website is work Mom says dot com. If you have any ideas for a guest that we should have on or a topic we should cover, please go there and submit a contact form and tell us about it. So again, thank you so much Ayanna and thank you for joining us. We’ll be back with another episode soon.
00;46;28;02 – 00;46;28;21
Ayana King
Thank you.
00;46;29;19 – 00;46;31;08
Intro
Thanks for listening to work.
00;46;31;08 – 00;46;33;27
Lori Jo Vest
Mom says Don’t be an idiot.
00;46;34;03 – 00;46;44;14
Intro
For more information, you can email work mom at l0ri work Mom says account. That’s Lori at work. Mom says dot com and remember.
00;46;45;14 – 00;46;48;13
Lori Jo Vest
Don’t be an idiot.
Who is our ideal listener?
This podcast is for young professionals, so they can learn to play the emotional context sport of business and experience less drama and more success.
The ideal listener is anyone struggling on an emotional level in the workplace. Work Mom Says it helps you learn to be strategic at work. This means you can look at the big picture without getting lost in the weeds. How can you be more logical and less emotional? Be strategic, and Work Mom Says can help you.
“I tell people to back up, put down the magnifying glass, and look at the big picture when you’re responding to something,” said Lori Jo Vest, Work Mom. “In doing this, you will understand that what’s really upsetting you right now will be something you don’t even remember next week.”
What value can people get from listening to this podcast?
Listening to Work Mom Says can help you grow your mood management skills, grow your ability to reframe situations, and look at things from a strategic point of view. This makes it easier to go into a work situation and get the most positive results.
On Work Mom Says, we also offer tips and tricks for creating connected positive relationships that last over time. People will want you on the team if you can create connected positive relationships and work environments. You become an asset, and you will be more successful when you’re an asset.
“I also like to talk about developing traits like optimism, persistence, tenacity, stick-to-itiveness, sticking with things, and approaching every project with a curious mind instead of a fearful mind,” said Lori Jo Vest, Work Mom
Why do I do this? A few more words from Work Mom
I do this because I naturally fell into the Work Mom role when I worked in the ad agency business and had so much fun with it. I also realized I had made just about every mistake there was to make. I don’t hold myself as a stellar example of truth and how you should be. I hold myself out there as someone who has been bruised, battered, and beaten up and learned some important lessons. I’d love to share these lessons with young people, so they don’t have to make those same mistakes or be the idiot I was.
I also want to help young professionals realize that many things our culture prioritizes aren’t really important. We talk a lot about what should be important and how to present your best face at the office so that you can succeed.
I’ve learned so much throughout my career, and it’s gratifying to share that with young professionals and help them avoid some of those mistakes and get to that success sooner.
Episode 25 – “How to Be a Better Ally: You Have to Do the Work” appeared first on Work Mom Says.